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Contents |
Anything I'm missing? (Found this: User_talk:Tawker#Kouta_Hirano 21:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC))—Philip N.✉ 21:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
In addition to what I already stated when I moved the article for the first time...
...the man's name is Kouta (or Kōta), period. Myself and others have already provided proof of this. The usage of "Kohta" has been popularized in the English-speaking world because of Dark Horse's mistranslation. Despite that, the anime/manga press (ANN, for example) generally uses "Kouta". During his appearances at American conventions (AX2005, Otakon 06), "Kouta" is used. This is an encyclopedia, and we're suppoed to provide facts, not propagate mistakes. Similarly, in the Hellsing article, we use "Bernadotte" instead of "Vernedead" because it's a widely known and blatant mistake on DH's part. Ditto for the werewolf/Werwolf issue, Anderson's fabricated Scottish ethnicity, etc. A more extreme example would be the fact that the official German edition of Hellsing vol. 7 erroneously states that Seras turned Pip into a vampire; that doesn't change the fact that it isn't true. Schrödinger 05:23, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I can indeed unequivocally prove Hirano himself writes it as "Kouta" in its Romanized form, not "Kohta," citing a picture of custom drawing — with him holding said drawing — that he gave two cosplayers at Anime Expo '05, as well as some various Ultimate OVA pre-release posters he autographed for fans. The fact that it's 'acceptable' doesn't make it correct — it's not. When it's written out as "Kohta" in some releases (usually the English versions), it's Romanized as such for the sake of English readers who speak little to no Japanese and thus don't know the correct enunciation. However, his name in its appropriate romaji form is, in fact, "Kouta" as opposed to "Kohta." It's fine as is, leave it alone.
–Bakemono – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:11 (UTC)
Legally speaking, the "trade" name is Kouta Hirano. You see, Dark Horse doesn't have a registered copyright vis-à-vis Hellsing — one minute searching the Library of Congress site will show you that. It's a common law copyright, therefore less protected, but nonetheless still covered under the Berne Convention, Article 2. The original copyright registration, however -- TM too -- is in Japan, a country that shares Berne reciprocity with the US and many other English speaking countries. It's registered under 'Kouta Hirano' via 'Shonengahosha' in Japan -- yes, I checked. Since it didn't matter legally on their end, because they didn't register it here, they could've used either Romanized spelling. Why Kohta, then? As I stated before, I feel Dark Horse almost certainly opted to use "Kohta" for the sake of 日本語 illiterate English readers and their almost guaranteed predisposition to mispronouncing his name had it been in the (more commonly used) Kouta form.
Moreover, while you may technically be getting more 'trade hits' searching Kohta on an English search engine, that's because it's a rather biased search, considering Dark Horse only uses and publishes under that name, and Hellsing is, naturally, Hirano's most popular series in the English speaking world as well as elsewhere. On the other hand, were you to try a Japanese search engine with the two variants, you'll get a much more balanced result regarding commerce-related hits tied to Hellsing and some of Kouta's other manga series.
–化け物 – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:56 (UTC)
Sigh... I don't usually do this, but I just can't resist that chance to public prove a lot of moronic people wrong. Below you'll find a collection of links to an eclectic blend of exerpts from various mangas (some hentai) drawn by the one and only, Mr. Kouta Hirano. Some scans are from the handwriting pages at the back of the Hellsing tankoubon and other stories (e.g. UFO/Guy-Ya), some are the covers, some are the 'publication credits' page, etc. In addition, I'll include the official OVA poster, as well as some older Young King Ours posters released in 2000 and 2001 issues. Now, pay CLOOOOOOOOSSSEEE attention to the spelling of his name, okay?? Good children. (By the way, take note of the types of things a true fan of Hirano's work has in their possession ;).)
In any event, here you are — click away:
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5973/0028me.jpg http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/4108/gayya2001429zi.jpg http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/356/1613ru.jpg http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4905/1794qp.jpg http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3465/gunmania20036xu.jpg http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1854/1910hn.jpg http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7188/2020di.jpg http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/7908/gun03021ug.jpg http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/92/gayya2001011on.jpg http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/4709/vol06unknownhandwritingpage13g.png http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/820/125041252312471125311246406192.jpg http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/855/gayya2001467na.jpg http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3958/areri2001img438x6001145977964o.jpg http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/694/hell52045pr.jpg http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5812/hell52065mo.jpg http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5555/hiside4079hl.jpg http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4376/hiside4670ka.jpg http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9272/hiside5024eg.jpg http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9873/hiside5067ih.jpg http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/6772/hiside9038ky.jpg http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/710/hiside9534va.jpg http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2081/mischirano20gv.gif http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/5456/mischirano42av.jpg http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/656/wkend010eb.jpg http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/4671/ufo2000144el.jpg http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/682/ufo394kn.jpg http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/9172/ufo411vc.jpg http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/3987/ufo420jh.jpg http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2695/ufo023dq.jpg http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4843/ufo014ye.jpg http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5573/hirano21dt0bn.jpg http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/1551/runnel8mimg361x500110069798318.jpg http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/7048/runnel8mimg368x500110069836310.jpg http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/1807/p73100223iu.jpg http://img347.imageshack.us/img347/8907/hiside5017gf.jpg http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/7759/hiside4008on.jpg http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/1192/0008so.png http://img420.imageshack.us/img420/7725/gayya2001032xq.jpg http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/5484/randymar19thimg418x60011441636.jpg http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3126/gunmania010016ia.jpg http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4897/yukinekoteiimg300x408114561336.jpg http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3308/hiside9011oy.jpg
This last pic is dedicated to whoever believed vehemently that it was Kohta instead of Kouta.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8688/pwn3d1bd.gif
...So then, with that bit out of the way, um... how many times do you see him writing out his name as "Kohta Hirano?" Never, you say? Oopsy. (Oh, if you can find somewhere -- anywhere -- that he does actually write out his name as Kohta Hirano, I'll give you big props and my Coyote tankoubon.)
As you can see above, it's not "ultimately" used at all, as ultimately would imply Kohta is used a majority of the time... it isn't. Reverse that, you have an accurate, factual statement — "Kouta" is used predominantly. In fact, aside from Kouta, Kota/Kōta is used more than Kohta ever is.
And I could honestly care less who you side with, as that doesn't alter the fact that it's "Kouta" if for no other reason than that's how he personally writes it in its respective Anglicized format. Yes, it's Kōta with macrons in traditional and revised Hepburn, just as it's Kôta in Nihon-shiki and Kunrei-shiki romanizations, and Kouta in wāpuro romaji — the preferred format. (しょうもないことを言うな！) I already know this and have for quite some time, but it's beside the point. Cheers from rainy Mishima.
You can all STFU, now.
–化け物 – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:22 (UTC)
There is preëxisting consensus that hiragana is not needed when giving Japanese names; see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) for the currently agreed-upon format. Please do not add the kana again until and unless consensus changes concerning this. –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 14:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not needed, but it's always provided in all Japanese releases of Hellsing at the back of each tankoubon — this is predominantly the case in コヨーテ, 拝Ｈｉテンション, ガンマニア and most of his other works, too. Furthermore, Hirano himself is known to write his name in hiragana — technically furigana — above its kanji counterpart. Thus, it was appropriately placed here.
The point I was getting at is that you're unable to write it correctly in the aforementioned fashion, so doing it the way John did it is the only way.
That is to say, unlike in a word processor -- like MS Word -- where you can write hiragana ruby text above the kanji via 'Format,' on wikipedia it can't be done; it would parse it out like: 平(ひら)野(の)耕(こう)太(た) if you attempted a Copy & Paste from word. Putting it separately in hiragana is the only way, and thus is appropriate and very much acceptable.
Do you have to have it? No; of course not. Do they have to put it the very same way (in ruby'd kanji) in the publication credits at the back of every Japanese Hellsing tankoubon, where his name is clearly written in romaji as well? Nope, they don't. But, they still do. And in my opinion, it's particularly necessary in this case because people need to know that's how his name is commonly written in furigana/hiragana, and to show that it's undoubtedly Kouta and not Kohta.
–Bakemono 08:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
You're totally screwing up the edit history, Bakemono. It's already been clearly established that "Kohta" is the most commonly used form of romanization for his name, and therefore the one that should be used in the article. Your blind insistence that we use "Kouta" just because you want it that way is getting old. Please stop your pettiness and go with the accepted form on Wikipedia according to both WP:MOS and WP:MOS-JA. If you do a quoted Google search, you get 20,200 hits for "Kouta Hirano" (with 1,780 for "Hirano Kouta", for a total of 21,980) and 44,300 for "Kohta Hirano" (with 51,300 for "Hirano Kohta", for a total of 95,600). Going by that, it's very obvious which one is most commonly used, by a ratio of nearly 5 to 1.
If you continue with how you've been acting, it is very possible you will get yourself blocked or banned for consistently going against the established guidelines and policies on Wikipedia. If you want something changed on WIkipedia, this is absolutely not the way to go about it. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, in kanji form he's known as 「平野耕太」and his name is registered as such, but in romaji, according to the Japanese Copyright Office & Agency for Cultural Affairs (I guess they could be lying to support my argument), it's registered as "Kouta Hirano." This is getting really old, really fast. Are you blind or something? Did you not see the myriad of pictures I posted above?
I'm not going to argue with you on this matter anymore, nihon. You've already been clearly proven wrong in the matter — it's Kouta, not Kohta; get over it. Further, you wanted proof that Hirano expressed a personal preference for Kouta rather than Kohta, and I gave that to you in concrete form as well. It seems pretty obvious this whole bout has become more about personally showing you're in the right, even when you're blatantly in the wrong, than about -- what should be important -- keeping a Wikipedia page factually sound. So, who's the petty party now? Also, it seems you like Google a lot, eh? As that's all you ever cite. I said a "Japanese search engine," not an Americanized version tied into the same search database as its .com counterpart.
Look, let me put it this way: you can keep using your flimsy 'Google defense' till you're blue in the face. You still lose, and that's all there is to it. Take your loss like a man, suck it up, and move on to vandalizing another Wikipedia article where there's no absolute proof against you on the other side. And I'm not going to tell you again, as you've already been flagged for vandalism before.
If you want to take it to the Wiki-jury, I'd love to. In the end, I can assure you that you'll be the one getting banned for TOS violations, not me. Don't touch it again. Now, you've been warned.
じゃあね
–化け物 – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:22 (UTC)
Well since you're "Nihonjoe," I figure you'd be adept enough to figure that one out. Since you're so proficient with a search engine and, apparently, nihongo and all, Nihonjoe.
But for me to put more effort into proving you wrong would be like pouring perfume on a pig. In other words, an exercise in futility. I've already done that -- even going so far as to show personal examples of Hirano's own preference, as per your request -- and where did it get us? Nowhere. I tell you what, if you'll admit his name is Kouta, I'll give you the link. Deal? Deal.
Also, uh, if you don't believe me about the vandalism flag, please check your edit history.
–化け物 – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:22 (UTC)
I've provided you with my reasoning and evidence, and I will say that I *strongly* disagree that using an English Google search is an effective way to decide things like this (because it is skewed and disproportionate, and mainly accounts for Dark Horse's usage of the name). You insist that it's "established" that Kohta is the most widely used spelling, but you just keep citing policy and Google hits without considering the evidence I've given. You still haven't addressed the fact that "Kouta" is used by so many other companies/organizations, AND by Hirano himself. Also, can we please just discuss this and not attack each other? Let's not get personal, please.
PS: I am in complete agreement with you, Bakemono, but it's not a good idea to just keep moving the page back and forth. You can get blocked for it. =/ There's this thing called the "three-revert rule". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Three-revert_rule Schrödinger 19:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
He/she is ineffectually trying to make a red herring point, since the bottom has all but utterly dropped out on their end in relation to any factual proof supporting their side.
From what I gather -- and granted we're talking the logic of someone who's probably still a teenager -- they're saying, in a roundabout way, that because this is an English article and because Dark Horse prints the English version (albeit a wholly mistranslated, poorly printed one) and in said English version they use an incorrect Romanization of Kouta Hirano's name (Kohta), that it should therefore be Kohta and not Kouta.
Of course, not taking into account and failing to note that the official and original publication of Hellsing uses Kouta and just about every other Hirano release in existance, mind you. Basically, forget the truth and the legitimate, legal spelling of his name. Just go ahead and skew it because the mistranslating English proxy company putting out Hellsing uses Kohta for the unwashed, Japanese illiterate, stereotypical 14-year-old manga consumer, and that sole, corporate entity makes it right by default. Hey Whisper, you aren't Dubya posting under an alias, are ya?
–化け物 – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:51 (UTC)
As I said to Whisper, I don't really care who sides with whom. This isn't a phallus-swinging conest, this about making the article correct. And I fail to see how stating the obvious in the above paragraph is, well, 'out of line.' Have I used an expletive? Have I said, for example, "ass." Nope — not once.
Believe me, I'm very calm. After all, it's not like I'm sitting here going: YOU *#@%*#$! LITTLE #*%@#, HIS NAMES KOUTA-@#^$!-HIRANO, OKAY?!! See that would be out of line and out of control (AKA not calm), completely uncalled for, and rather immature to boot. However, I'm not doing that. Am I being a bit sarcastic and sardonic? Yes, definitely, because most of those on the opposing side aren't even going to catch it, and that's just how I am. Out of line, though? That's going a bit far, and likewise approaches out of line -- in your sense of the line's threshold, that is.
I appreciate your point, but you don't need to threaten me or call me out to get it across, as it's not going to change my demeanor a single iota.
–化け物 – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:36 (UTC)
If you don't like Kouta Hirano's works, then why are you posting here relentlessly? Bugger off and leave this to fans that actually have the knowledge to know what they're talking about, and the proof to back it up.
Speaking of which, I notice, conveniently, you have no similar counter to the visual proof I posted above. Slip your mind to address that, Nihon? Or, wait, are you a Google representative??! That's it! Sorta like the Chewlie's Gum salesman in Clerks, right?? We're on to you now, though, Google promoter! The jig is up. Tsk-tsk, you guys are shameless.
–化け物 – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:57 (UTC)
Riiiiight, that's what all Google reps say. You're very convincing, I almost believed you for a second.
But, you're wrong about one thing, it has everything to do with being a Hirano fan. Because you aren't, you have no right to be editing an article about the genius that is he. You have no a posteriori knowledge of anything related to him, his various manga series, his personal life, or his interests -- accept from what you quote on "Google," and that's far from proof or knowledge of anything. Heck, I wouldn't even venture calling your level of knowledge a priori. I'd say it's more in the realm of denial.
And hey, you keep your speculations about my speculations to yourself, as they have nothing to do with this discussion.
–化け物 – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:43 (UTC)
Oh, and since when has having a sense of humor been considered uncivilized?
Who edited someone else's comment?
–化け物 – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:08 (UTC)
Ahh, you're right, I did; I apologize -- it certainly wasn't purposeful, and was indeed an accident. Think about it, why would I take away my source of entertainment ;P? I love Whisper. Regardless, it's been reverted.
Though looking at the actual comment, it doesn't seem very relevant to the whole of this discussion, since it addresses me personally submitting a Move Protection request. It's more aptly placed on my talk page. I guess he/she's mad because I thought of it before he/she did. C'est la vie.
–化け物 – Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:12 (UTC)
To be fair, it appears that the most common way to romanize his name in Japan is "Kouta Hirano" (based on all the Japanese manga pages scanned above by Bakemono). However, the most common way to romanize the name in English (which is what Wikipedia uses to determine which to use) appears to be "Kohta Hirano" based on the number of Google hits for each version of the romanization, as presented above). Specifically, the Naming conventions page states:
Now, it stands to reason that the title that "the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize" is going to be the name most commonly found when doing a seach on the internet using Google, Yahoo!, AltaVista, or whatever other search engine/registry you want to use to perform the search. Here are results of those searches:
I suspect that any other search engine will return similar ratios. Now, are we going to go with "what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize" (per WP:NC), or are we going to go with something else? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 22:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
So, wait, let me see if I've got this right, because if so, it's bordering farcical.
You're proposing we compromise the universally correct spelling of his name -- and subsequently the overall integrity of this article -- because of a mistake made by the American publisher when they printed his series in English under an incorrect Romanization; because of a single version of Hellsing? That's practically what whisper said — and still doesn't change that fact that he prefers Kouta Hirano himself, writes it that way and a majority of his other publications do too. Wait, wasn't that your initial excuse for keeping it as Kohta, though? Didn't you specifically ask for proof that he wrote it as Kouta? Was that request not lovingly satisfied by yours truly?? Ahh, I think it was. I guess this is your next attempt at winning the argument, though, eh? That or another plug for Google, either/or.
And no, you're quite wrong, as I've yielded almost dead-even results (sometimes more for Kouta Hirano) on Japanese search engines, and, in my opinion, the difference above is negligible for the aforementioned reasons. While you may steadfastly think so, Nihon, search engines aren't scientific ground for proving or disproving a hypothesis, and I don't think any scientist alive would base research on 'search engine hits' alone for that very reason.
But in retort to your last remark, I'm going to have to go with neither majority nor minority, I'm going to go with what we like to call the "right way." And his name, the right way, is Kouta Hirano. Nice try, though. I applaud your last ditch effort, I truly do. Thanks kindly.
–Bakemono 22:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
You mean you don't want to be my friend? I'm heartbroken. I can't for the life of me understand why. Please, oh please, be my online friend. I didn't mean to offend you black-text-with-a-name Google-guy. Hrmm, so was that sardonic or sarcastic -- or a little of both?
As you might have already surmised, I'm not here to "make friends" or be polite, courteous or respectful towards philistine vandals. Rather, I'm here to make sure this article stays correct and, as an ancillary benefit, to prove non-fan wannabe Wiki-Gods like you, who know little to nothing about a subject the respective article is about yet still try and speak about it like they do using search engines to back their chimerical case, wrong. And as long as I'm still alive, it will and I will.
Thanks for stating the obvious, though: you don't really care about this author/artist. Once again, clearly, this has been about you being unable to accept that you're wrong from the get-go and clutching at straws to find some weak defense for your arguments in favor of Kohta ever since I took away your prior excuse -- never about the truth behind the spelling of Hirano's name or making this article correct.
I don't care if your mind is changed or not, that doesn't alter the facts. And I can just say I've interacted perfectly fine with a "majority" of other editors I've come in contact and had disagreements with on Wikipedia because, unlike you, they're willing to accept undeniable fact in a counterargument when it's cold-cocked 'em in the face by way of cold, hard evidence. You obviously prefer the ostrich approach, and that's just peachy with me. Come continue to bury your head in my sandbox, and I'll continue to find amusing places to stick the shovel. Enjoy that metaphor.
–Bakemono 02:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I've merged the page histories of Kohta Hirano and Kouta Hirano (as well as their associated Talk pages) in order to fix the incorrect cut-and-paste move of the pages. Please do not move the pages through cut-and-paste again. Thank you. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Coming here per the comment on WP:ANIME all I can say is... strawpoll anyone? (I also refer interested parties to the fictional character name discussions on WP:MOS-JA, a category of names which have this problem on a more frequent basis.)
A few points: put all name variations into the article. This will allow the names to all be picked up by search engines. The most efficient way to do is to footnote them on the name entry. Also create redirects from the various other spellings of the name (I assume this was done already.) This will also push search engines into picking up this name.
Template nihogo is another good way to include name varations in an article that help to increase searchability Kohta Hirano (平野耕太 Hirano Kōta?). I would also like to reinforce the idea that we should NOT include the "hiragana version". Romaji trumps that usage in most cases. --Kunzite 00:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Have we reached a consensus? It doesn't seem like we have. I understand this goes against policy (which I disagree with, but hey), so I would feel more comfortable if we actually agreed on this before making a change.
BTW, I am all for providing both spellings in the article. That makes sense. Schrödinger 04:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
"-cart -price"). Mind, if Kohta were actually an incorrect or erroneous romanization of 耕太, I wouldn't want it as an article title either; but it's not.Okay - If we can't have ruby characters, we shouldn't. Everyone is in agreement with not having ruby characters, right? WhisperToMe 02:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
They're only unseen if you're using Firefox. In IE and Opera, however, they display fine. I was simply trying to find correct middle ground, since both you and Whisper had a problem with placing explanatory hiragana to the side separately. But it's irrelevant now — I've since reverted it. –Bakemono Sat, 01 Jul 2006 03:46 (UTC)
We're either going to explain it in full or take it out completely. Leaving it the way it was, in slipshod form, though, doesn't justifiably emphasize how little Kohta is actually used.
–Bakemono Sat, 01 Jul 2006 04:29 (UTC)
Amazon.co.jp uses "Kohta". See: Amazon.co.jp listing. — Nrtm81 10:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I see that Crossfire hasn't got an article, I know that most is covered in the Hellsing article (mostly the characters) but I was thinking we summarise the plots and note differences in the characters (Maxwell's change in appearance for example. Sam 11:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)